Migrant boat disaster in Greece

[ArchieG]

Talking about 500 dead now. Terrible.

It is a horrific tragedy. I'm finding the refusal of help from the Greeks quite believable, they’d avoid that until fearing for their lives. Then, I think, it probably all happened too fast. It would take only seconds to capsise. Then everyone on deck is swimming, if they can, and 90% of the people below are trapped, if not permanently, for too long to make it to an exit as the water rushed in. Greek ‘rescuers’ have been put in a difficult position by the Greek government. Migrant boats are probably at least wary of them. Bottom line, the people who organise this are 100% to blame. That fishing boat probably normally carries 10-15 crew. It might be safe with 100 passengers who could travel in the hold. Just to put my view on the overloading.

[ArchieG]

For people who deal with reality:

Generally speaking people below decks would be safer, those on deck would be more exposed to the high heat, the storm swells and so on. That's why in all the war films you see the most vulnerable people are asked to 'go below'.

But let's not both the hate-fuelled RWNJ agenda with any facts.

Unfortunately, Mr Jack, this is bollocks. People are sent below in wars because people are shooting. The lesser of 2 evils, or at any rate, the shooting happens before the sinking. Nothing to do with heat (greater shut below inside a tin box with a crowd of heat emitting humans) or storm swell, in the Aegean in Summer, if it wasn’t serious I’d laugh. As to right wing nut jobs, I have no comment to make. The news may be manipulated, sure. Thems the facts about above and below decks, though, old chap. Far more dangerous in a grossly overloaded boat to be inside. The fact that it turned over in relatively calm water is testament to the overloading. The reason people were shepherded below is probably to rectify very obvious stability issues, and crowd crush. As to choosing who went below, I can’t imagine how that could be done. In what we can only assume was an emergency situation, the people nearest the door, surely?

Signed, a professional seafarer.

Thanks Archie.

And thanks to Holly's good work we know that it is the people smugglers who decided who to put in greatest danager based on race and gender, the unfortunate passengers on the boat get no say in where they are put.

Looking at it rationally I would guess that in the normal run of events the refugees are going to be exploited by unscrupulous employers, a job made much easier by the cuts made at the Home Office so it would make sense to give those most likely to make most profit for their new employers the best chance of survival.

Do you think if there were safe, legal routes into the country people just seeking to work and make a better life for themselves would go prefer to use those routes and go into legal employment, filling one of the many jobs left unfilled due to the acute skills and labour shortages we're currently experiencing due to Brexit?

Ikd also perhaps not overlook the possibility that the smugglers were as well informed as your good self about safety at sea, re gender of people below. Maybe, just maybe, best motives and appalling judgement.

Migration in general, my family are migrants. Just 100 years back. My great grandparents were given a chance and took it. But in those days there were relatively few migrants. My feeling these days is that we’d do better to address the causes of migration.

[ArchieG]

Basically, CJ, there are more migrants than can fit on our island. We could take 5 million and there’d still be more. Someone, well obviously not one person, has to choose who we take and who we don’t. Making their home lands more attractive would seem to be the best way through.

[Holly]

For people who deal with reality:

Generally speaking people below decks would be safer, those on deck would be more exposed to the high heat, the storm swells and so on. That's why in all the war films you see the most vulnerable people are asked to 'go below'.

But let's not both the hate-fuelled RWNJ agenda with any facts.

Unfortunately, Mr Jack, this is bollocks. People are sent below in wars because people are shooting. The lesser of 2 evils, or at any rate, the shooting happens before the sinking. Nothing to do with heat (greater shut below inside a tin box with a crowd of heat emitting humans) or storm swell, in the Aegean in Summer, if it wasn’t serious I’d laugh. As to right wing nut jobs, I have no comment to make. The news may be manipulated, sure. Thems the facts about above and below decks, though, old chap. Far more dangerous in a grossly overloaded boat to be inside. The fact that it turned over in relatively calm water is testament to the overloading. The reason people were shepherded below is probably to rectify very obvious stability issues, and crowd crush. As to choosing who went below, I can’t imagine how that could be done. In what we can only assume was an emergency situation, the people nearest the door, surely?

Signed, a professional seafarer.

Thanks Archie.

And thanks to Holly's good work we know that it is the people smugglers who decided who to put in greatest danager based on race and gender, the unfortunate passengers on the boat get no say in where they are put.

Looking at it rationally I would guess that in the normal run of events the refugees are going to be exploited by unscrupulous employers, a job made much easier by the cuts made at the Home Office so it would make sense to give those most likely to make most profit for their new employers the best chance of survival.

Do you think if there were safe, legal routes into the country people just seeking to work and make a better life for themselves would go prefer to use those routes and go into legal employment, filling one of the many jobs left unfilled due to the acute skills and labour shortages we're currently experiencing due to Brexit?

Holy Moly

Given the fact that most if not all people came from Muslim countries, it would make sense why they separated the woman and children from the men, and yes, I agree with you, it is saver and more comfortable for women and children below deck, as long as it doesn't capsize, then it becomes a trap.
Get it?

[Holly]

You don't have justify yourself in any way, you have proven the hate fuelled assertion by RWNJs that it is the refugees themselves who placed the women and children at risk completely wrong.

I will salute the use of critical thinking and seeking supporting evidence that led you to the conclusion that it is definitively NOT the refugees themselves who were at fault. Your use of evidence and critical thinking has shown the any assertion that it is the refugees themselves who are at fault is entirely wrong.

Fantastic job of proving an RWNJ talking point utterly wrong. And now you have found the evidence that it is entirely wrong for yourself you'll never make that assertion again.

I have never claimed any of that shit you accuse me of.
Show me where I said it was the refugees fault.
Of course it wasn't, the bastards who packed them on that boat like sardines are at fault, period!

It was explained to you why it's more dangerous below deck when a boat capsizes, that was all.
It had nothing to do with hate, victim blaming or being a RWNJ.
What's wrong with you?
You just can't admit that it was YOU who had it utterly wrong, you rather turn to insults.
But carry on and make a fool of yourself some more.

[Cactus Jack]

Yes Holly, Archie explained why it was safer above decks and you explained how, contrary the to RWNJ narrative, it was not the refugees themselves but the people smuggers who decided who went where on the boat.

Your research has shown that any attempt to imply that the refugees themselves bear any responsibility for the tragedy is just despicable victim blaming and completely unacceptable. Thank you for pointing out that vile Right Wing lie to us all.

[Grafenwalder]

Pakistan to hold day of mourning after more than 500 dead.

https://news.sky.com/story/greece-migra ... y-12905034

[Holly]

Yes Holly, Archie explained why it was safer above decks and you explained how, contrary the to RWNJ narrative, it was not the refugees themselves but the people smuggers who decided who went where on the boat.

Your research has shown that any attempt to imply that the refugees themselves bear any responsibility for the tragedy is just despicable victim blaming and completely unacceptable. Thank you for pointing out that vile Right Wing lie to us all.

Oh FFS, give it up with your unfounded RWNJ BS. If there is a nut job around here, it's you, and only you.
You're accusing me of things I haven't said, and I won't have it.
No twisting my comments, or gaslighting me will change that.

It is so obvious what you're trying to do here.
Just give it up, this is getting pathetic.
People reading here can actually comprehend,and understand what you're trying to do, don't you get that?

Yes, other than me, Archie and Hobbit also explained things to you, but all you seem so focus on is calling me a RWNJs, hateful and victim blaming, when nothing like that was ever insinuated by me.

This conversation could have ended just after a couple of posts, but you want to keep this shit going, rather than admitting that you might have had it wrong, instead of doing that, you decided to insult me.

And before you call other people hateful, I think you should keep an eye on your own comments.

There comes a time when even you must realise that you're losing the argument.
With each post you sound more and more ridiculous, irrational, and vindictive.

[Cactus Jack]

Yes Holly, Archie explained why it was safer above decks and you explained how, contrary the to RWNJ narrative, it was not the refugees themselves but the people smuggers who decided who went where on the boat.

Your research has shown that any attempt to imply that the refugees themselves bear any responsibility for the tragedy is just despicable victim blaming and completely unacceptable. Thank you for pointing out that vile Right Wing lie to us all.

Oh FFS, give it up with your unfounded RWNJ BS. If there is a nut job around here, it's you, and only you.
You're accusing me of things I haven't said, and I won't have it.
No twisting my comments, or gaslighting me will change that.

It is so obvious what you're trying to do here.
Just give it up, this is getting pathetic.
People reading here can actually comprehend,and understand what you're trying to do, don't you get that?

Yes, other than me, Archie and Hobbit also explained things to you, but all you seem so focus on is calling me a RWNJs, hateful and victim blaming, when nothing like that was ever insinuated by me.

This conversation could have ended just after a couple of posts, but you want to keep this shit going, rather than admitting that you might have had it wrong, instead of doing that, you decided to insult me.

And before you call other people hateful, I think you should keep an eye on your own comments.

There comes a time when even you must realise that you're losing the argument.
With each post you sound more and more ridiculous, irrational, and vindictive.

I don't get it Holly - I'm here celebrating your acheivement and you're getting more and more.

There was a definitely a right wing lie that said it was the refugees who controlled where the women and children put. Your research and critical analysis proved that talking point to be completely wrong.

In case it wasn't clear enough before I am acknowledging that you have completely destroyed that right wing talking point and I am praising you for having done so in such a brilliant way.

[Guest]

Greece boat disaster: Up to 500 people still missing says UN
Up to 500 people are still missing from a migrant boat that sank off Greece, the UN human rights office says.

Large numbers of women and children were among those missing in the "horrific tragedy" that left 78 people dead, said spokesman Jeremy Laurence.

The appalling loss of life underscored the need to bring people smugglers to justice, he added.

OMG, I had the shivers watching the news just earlier.
What a tragic number of human loss.
I'm speechless.

But what I also have noticed, that most people who died where women and children.
Why?
What were the men doing? Watching their wives and children drown? Saving themselves?
I'm appalled.
Why is it, that more often than not, it is men reaching save shores?

I'm glad they are alive, don't get me wrong, every human live is worth saving, but where are their wives and children?

Can any woman here imagine their husbands or partners not trying to save them?
Can any man here imagine watching their wives or partners drown?

Yes of course there are circumstances where you just can't do anything, but in this particular event, most people who died were women and children.

It's tragic, loving fathers would rather save their children's live than their own.

Women and children were locked in the hold by the crew. Pakistani men were forced to stay below deck by the crew. The pictures show a very overcrowded boat before it sank and we don't know how many men tried desperately to reach their wives and children.