Afghanistan.

[Rolluplostinspace]

What a waste of time and money.
Twenty years ago the Taliban said you can't stay here forever we'll wait. They are already taking over towns and cities and I would imagine there's going to be a lot of bloodshed.
Back to the stone age they go?

US left Afghan airfield at night, didn't tell new commander

Afghan soldiers who wandered Monday throughout the base that had once seen as many as 100,000 U.S. troops were deeply critical of how the U.S. left Bagram, leaving in the night without telling the Afghan soldiers tasked with patrolling the perimeter.

"In one night they lost all the good will of 20 years by leaving the way they did, in the night, without telling the Afghan soldiers who were outside patrolling the area,” said Afghan soldier Naematullah, who asked that only his one name be used.

Within 20 minutes of the U.S.'s silent departure on Friday, the electricity was shut down and the base was plunged into darkness, said Raouf, the soldier of 10 years who has also served in Taliban strongholds of Helmand and Kandahar provinces.

The sudden darkness was like a signal to the small army of looters, he said. They entered from the north smashing through the first barrier, ransacking buildings, loading anything that was not nailed down into trucks.
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/us/us-le ... li=AAnZ9Ug

[Maddog]

What a waste of time and money.
Twenty years ago the Taliban said you can't stay here forever we'll wait. They are already taking over towns and cities and I would imagine there's going to be a lot of bloodshed.
Back to the stone age they go?

US left Afghan airfield at night, didn't tell new commander

Afghan soldiers who wandered Monday throughout the base that had once seen as many as 100,000 U.S. troops were deeply critical of how the U.S. left Bagram, leaving in the night without telling the Afghan soldiers tasked with patrolling the perimeter.

"In one night they lost all the good will of 20 years by leaving the way they did, in the night, without telling the Afghan soldiers who were outside patrolling the area,” said Afghan soldier Naematullah, who asked that only his one name be used.

Within 20 minutes of the U.S.'s silent departure on Friday, the electricity was shut down and the base was plunged into darkness, said Raouf, the soldier of 10 years who has also served in Taliban strongholds of Helmand and Kandahar provinces.

The sudden darkness was like a signal to the small army of looters, he said. They entered from the north smashing through the first barrier, ransacking buildings, loading anything that was not nailed down into trucks.
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/us/us-le ... li=AAnZ9Ug

And blood, lots of blood wasted.

I don't know what the right reaction to 911 was, but trying to build a nation with folks not remotely interested in the project wasn't the right one.

If the Afghans want a functioning society, they are going to have to do it themselves. That's the only way it will be considered legitimate by the folks that live there..

[Rolluplostinspace]

If they genuinely thought Bin Laden was the man they should have rounded up his entire family and said hand yourself in or they will rot in jail and then maybe have invaded Saudi Arabia.

[Cactus Jack]

And blood, lots of blood wasted.

I don't know what the right reaction to 911 was, but trying to build a nation with folks not remotely interested in the project wasn't the right one.

If the Afghans want a functioning society, they are going to have to do it themselves. That's the only way it will be considered legitimate by the folks that live there..

You have to go back before 911 to deal with the Afghan question.

In the grand scheme of things Afghanistan has only ever drawn attention when some foreign government or another was trying to 'project power' in the region and other foreigners have always used the tribal conflicts in the region to wage a proxy war against whichever foreign government is 'projecting power'.

It is the theatre in which from the Seculids and Achaemenids right through to now where the US and Iran have been manoeuvring for supremacy. It looks like someone has finally decided that an Iranian back Taliban will be better for the US than a Saudi Taliban - which is somewhat weird when you consider that Saudi Arabia is nominally a US ally and Iran an implacable enemy. What's weirder is that it's probably the right decision.

Afghanistan will tie up Tehran quite nicely for the next decade or so and they will have no more success bringing peace and stability to the region than anyone else in the past millenia. Letting one Islamic power fight another will put an end to the idea this is a war between Christianity and Islam which will help traditional Western allies and might even help Israel which is often a US foreign policy goal.

In the meantime for the people of Afghanistan although extreme by most measures Iranian fundamentalism is more pragmatic than Saudi fundamentalism and much less well funded. There won't be peace, there never has been, but the armistices could well get a bit longer.

[Maddog]

And blood, lots of blood wasted.

I don't know what the right reaction to 911 was, but trying to build a nation with folks not remotely interested in the project wasn't the right one.

If the Afghans want a functioning society, they are going to have to do it themselves. That's the only way it will be considered legitimate by the folks that live there..

You have to go back before 911 to deal with the Afghan question.

In the grand scheme of things Afghanistan has only ever drawn attention when some foreign government or another was trying to 'project power' in the region and other foreigners have always used the tribal conflicts in the region to wage a proxy war against whichever foreign government is 'projecting power'.

It is the theatre in which from the Seculids and Achaemenids right through to now where the US and Iran have been manoeuvring for supremacy. It looks like someone has finally decided that an Iranian back Taliban will be better for the US than a Saudi Taliban - which is somewhat weird when you consider that Saudi Arabia is nominally a US ally and Iran an implacable enemy. What's weirder is that it's probably the right decision.

Afghanistan will tie up Tehran quite nicely for the next decade or so and they will have no more success bringing peace and stability to the region than anyone else in the past millenia. Letting one Islamic power fight another will put an end to the idea this is a war between Christianity and Islam which will help traditional Western allies and might even help Israel which is often a US foreign policy goal.

In the meantime for the people of Afghanistan although extreme by most measures Iranian fundamentalism is more pragmatic than Saudi fundamentalism and much less well funded. There won't be peace, there never has been, but the armistices could well get a bit longer.

Let Iran and Saudi fight a proxy war there. No skin off my ass. They can expand their conflict beyond Yemen.

[Cactus Jack]

Let Iran and Saudi fight a proxy war there. No skin off my ass. They can expand their conflict beyond Yemen.

You may be surprised to learn that I agree with you 100%

But you do have one small problem.

There is a treaty that says Saudi Arabia will received the same amount of military aid as Israel, and that's a lot.

And yes, I think it may even have been you that posted the story, Saudi Arabia is said to divert some of that money into supporting Islamic terrorism but it's all a bit complicated and the US needs Saudi Arabia, which works to Iran's advantage regionally.

[Maddog]

Let Iran and Saudi fight a proxy war there. No skin off my ass. They can expand their conflict beyond Yemen.

You may be surprised to learn that I agree with you 100%

But you do have one small problem.

There is a treaty that says Saudi Arabia will received the same amount of military aid as Israel, and that's a lot.

And yes, I think it may even have been you that posted the story, Saudi Arabia is said to divert some of that money into supporting Islamic terrorism but it's all a bit complicated and the US needs Saudi Arabia, which works to Iran's advantage regionally.

Saudi doesn't get aid from the US. They do buy some of our cool toys.

Oddly enough, Afghanistan receives more air than even Israel at this point.

[Cactus Jack]

The U.S. has $126.6 billion in active government-to-government sales cases with Saudi Arabia under the Foreign Military Sales (FMS) system. Since the May 2017 signing of the $110 billion commitment to pursue Saudi Armed Forces modernization, we carried out an increase in FMS and DCS cases. To date, this initiative resulted in over $27 billion in implemented FMS cases.

https://www.state.gov/u-s-security-coop ... di-arabia/

and of course

https://eu.usatoday.com/in-depth/news/p ... 438217002/

[Maddog]

The U.S. has $126.6 billion in active government-to-government sales cases with Saudi Arabia under the Foreign Military Sales (FMS) system. Since the May 2017 signing of the $110 billion commitment to pursue Saudi Armed Forces modernization, we carried out an increase in FMS and DCS cases. To date, this initiative resulted in over $27 billion in implemented FMS cases.

https://www.state.gov/u-s-security-coop ... di-arabia/

and of course

https://eu.usatoday.com/in-depth/news/p ... 438217002/

We work with lots of countries, including yours.

That's not the same as the aid we give Afghanistan or Israel.

[Cactus Jack]

[Maddog]

:thumbsup:

Sales doesn't equal aid.

As someone who knows lots of folks that work at Lockheed in Ft Worth, we like sales of our products to other countries.

Our GM plant in Arlington is also running 3 shifts to keep up with foreign demand.

Aid is when the US taxpayer buys those products for other countries. Like Afghanistan, Israel, Jordan and Egypt to name a few.

[Cactus Jack]